Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come!(2 Corinthians 5:17 AMP)
I was raised to believe that this passage describes what happens when we ‘believe in our heart and confess with our mouth that Christ is lord’ commonly known as repentance., an 180 degree turn from our pre-salvation state.
In my youth and young adult days, I made this confession. I sincerely believed that I had repented and was living a christian life. Yet here I am a middle aged adult rejecting the very notion of sin and the need of salvation.
How is this possible?
According to Paul: We know that our old (unrenewed) self was nailed to the cross with Him in order that [our] body [which is the instrument] of sin might be made ineffective and inactive for evil, that we might no longer be the slaves of sin.
7 For when a man dies, he is freed (loosed, delivered) from [the power of] sin [among men](Rom. 6:11 &12)
Yet I am living proof that this is not always the case. And I promise you I am not alone. This text is one of many that I took at face value. I believed it, I taught it, I preached it. Yet the test of time and tangible evidence has shown me that the veracity of this passage(the whole bible for that matter) is to be called into question.
It just has not panned out. Supposedly, Paul, before his conversion, was a zealot. it is said He zealously sought out christians for the sole purpose of persecuting them. After his conversion, did he cease being a zealot? No, his zeal was simply redirected.
As I mentioned in my bio, I have witnessed and been subjected to great evil at the hands of an alleged ‘born again christian’ if this is what he was after his ‘conversion’ I am grateful I did not know him before his conversion.
In conclusion, I find that the whole notion of salvation to be suspect (more about this in my next post). The idea that we become a new person after salvation is also suspect. There are thousands of people who have overcome major faults(drug abuse, anger management, etc.) without ever believing or accepting Christ as their ‘saviour’ and there are thousands, nay millions, more living decent, wholesome lives without the need of ‘redemption’.
People do not become these robotic, infallible, super-Christians, just because we have accepted Christ as Savior! What kind of God would He be, if He "made" us do anything. He gives us free will, to make our own choices. But we are not free from the consequences of those choices.
ReplyDeleteIt is sort of like the policeman, who told you to get out of the middle of the street. You may ignore him at that moment in time, but you cannot blame him after the 18 wheeler creams you!
God says in John 15:5,
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
Imagine the grape that falls from the grapevine. Before very long, it will become a shriveled up raisin. Or the apple that falls from the tree. It will die before too very long.
Being a Christian, does not promise us trouble-free lives. In fact, he promises us just the opposite. But God also promises to be with us in our times of trouble ..... if we want Him there!
In the passages I cite Paul says nothing about Christians being robotic, infallible or super. He does state that the old man, the old nature is "nailed to the cross" and as such sin was supposed to be made ineffective and INACTIVE. Yet your own words prove that assertion to be false.
ReplyDeleteAs to 'free will' Paul also indicates that were are 'born into sin' due to Adams transgression. There is absolutely no free will involved in being a "sinner" we do not get to choose to be a "sinner" we are born into this state and eventually have to 'repent' for what amount to a defect of birth. I go into more detail in tomorrows post. Thank you for commenting and being civil in doing so.
Oh one other thought.... According to Jesus and Paul we have one of two choices, your own comment bears this out. Choose God or die. How is this really a choice? Sure it SEEMS like a choice, but who would willing choose death and eternal torment in a lake of fire?
ReplyDeleteLets say I want woman X to marry me...instead of courting her and wooing her I just kidnap her and tell her that she either loves me and becomes my wife or I will torment and torture her and threaten to kill her(as well as anyone she cares for) until she complies. I think we can agree that is the wrong way to go about winning someones love.
Yet that is the choice humanity is given, Serve God or die. I challenge you to find any passage that tells us that the wages of 'sin' is not death.
Paul knew that he was only a sinner saved by Grace .....
ReplyDeleteRomans 7:15-20New Living Translation (NLT)
15 I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
18 And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] I want to do what is right, but I can’t. 19 I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20 But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
I believe we must "daily" confess Jesus as LORD, and must "daily" ask him to forgive us our sins! It is not a once and for all! We can choose to walk away at any time, just like you did!
As for door #1 - Life with Christ, or
Door #2 - Death
Jesus says in John 14:6, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."
Using your earlier example, if woman X does not choose you, then she will end up with something other than you, regardless of what it is.
So, if we do not choose God, who is LIFE, then no matter what else we choose, we choose something other than LIFE! In this case, DEATH!
It may seem to you like God is being unfair by saying, choose Me or die! But since He is the Creator of all that was, is, and will ever be, I suppose He gets to make up the rules!
Being a Christian is so much more than just a ticket out of Hell! Why would you want to live life outside of a relationship with Him? The life that the world offers is empty and meaningless!
I am sorry that a "so-called" christian let you down. Religion is a great evil in this world. Many bad things have been done in the name of religion.
But God is not on a religion, but a relationship! A relationship greater than any you could find here on earth. A relationship that takes time to develop.
John, won't you please just try God again! He loves you just as you are. He wants you to come to him with your burdens and your questions. All He asks it that you be honest with Him, and come willing to listen as well as speak!
Tony, thank you so much for taking the time to read and comment on my posts. I also want to thank for validating the point I was trying to make in the first part of your last post, I could not have said it better myself. The passages you cite are in direct contradiction to the ones I cited and ironically enough, penned by the same man in the same letter to the same people!
ReplyDeleteNow I could cite other scriptures that seem to indicate that we never have to sin again, but I have learned that getting in a 'bible' battle or 'right fight' to be fruitless and pointless. All I am doing is sharing my perspective and opinion, I am not out to 'convert' you or alter your values and beliefs.. As I respect your right to your views and beliefs I am asking you do the same for me.
As to your invitation, I respectfully decline.
Hey John!
ReplyDeleteSorry to be slow getting back to you.
I agree that a Bible debate is not good, since we could both pick and choose scriptures out of context, to support our positions!
I will just say this; if you are looking for contradictions in the Bible, you will find them. Again, it is because of taking scriptures out of context.
As for our sin nature, and needing Christ to save us from Hell: life is all rules. Without them, we would have nothing but chaos.
So why should Christianity be any different? Jehovah God has given us the rules:
Acknowledge that Jesus is Lord.
Admit that we are sinners.
Accept His forgiveness for our sins!
Attempt to live as sinless a life as possible!
Ask for forgiveness when we mess up!
Do all of this this, and we will have eternal life in Heaven. Don't do this, and we are bound for Hell.
It may sound harsh, but those are the rules! We do not get to change the rules or make up our own. John, you can try to blame a past hurt by a "so called" Christian, or the hypocrisy you see in the church, but in the end it will be because of your own foolish choice! I love and pray for you John!